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Old 03-31-2008, 08:34 PM   #26
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Thank you Ani for that very thoughtful answer. In no way did I feel you were angry (or evil) in your presentation of the ideas and experiences. In fact, your descriptions of having to gain male respect (kicking doors in) was very poignant.
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Old 03-31-2008, 09:19 PM   #27
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I get promoted into a leadership position over a bunch of frat boys on a Maintenance crew. VERY MALE environment.
I quickly became the one most likely to bounce your head of a table and curse at you.

Why? Because I found out I either go the guys to follow me by going topless and mesmeriziing them with breasts or I out testosterone them and scared the living beejessus outta them.
Oh, can I relate to that! I worked in shipping, in a manufacturing plant. Not only nearly all male, but a lot of them of social and religious backgrounds where women are to be seen and not heard. Take directions from moi? Right...so yeah, like you, I developed a vocabulary and demeanor that I wasn't particularly fond of - but I had a job to do and had to find a way of getting these guys moving. I don't know if it was the shock value or the fact I could spit out the words faster and further than they could - but there were no slackers on my shift. It's just too bad it had to be that way, because I came home angry most days, just from having to act like that for so many hours...
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Old 03-31-2008, 11:44 PM   #28
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Dawg - so if I understand this clearly, you are saying because you have discussed this in a forum previously, this thread will be closed down if I bring up my own questions or perspectives? Wouldn't the more reasonable step here (to avoid the rehashing) be to let us chatter among ourselves on this subject?

And if this thread is going to be closed down for speaking openly, I would just like to say that there is a big difference between glorifying misogyny and presenting it as a horrible set of actions by evil people that must be stopped. BSG has not glorified misogyny. If bringing up the subject in the context of fiction is itself a crime, then you should also condemn "The Accused" with Jodie Foster.
You misinterpret. I was echoing Tracy, trying to keep this thread pointed in the direction of Dirk's article and not a full-on discussion of subjects we've decided we don't want to talk about.

I think I get you now, though. I said nothing about "glorifying" misogyny or anything else - that's your term, not mine. But when the alleged heroes of the story are the ones guilty of criminal mistreatment of the female characters, then it's not being presented as a "horrible set of actions by evil people" - those are the actions of the people we're supposed to identify with and root for. So I'll accept the term "glorifying" and thank you for it.

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Old 04-01-2008, 01:01 AM   #29
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Ok..

I allowed this thread to continue in good faith that it would be treated as a debate on what DIRK stated in his Lost In Castration article. I made it clear that it's not a debate of "my show is better than your show". It's creeping dangerously close to that.
We tried this discussion before, and it didn't work. I thought that after several years of the articles release and it basically being beaten to death, Dirk praised, called an asshole, male chauvenist pig, blah blah blah, that *perhaps* a new fresher perspective could be taken after the initial fracas.
Time has passed and tempers have tempered.
If that's not going to be the case, and some still want to beat the already dead horse, without making an informed and valid arguement, then it's pointless discussing it at all.

If you disagree with something DIRK SAID, then voice it and state your case. We'll debate WHAT HE SAID.
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Old 04-01-2008, 12:27 PM   #30
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I'm curious, Dirk talked about sorta the emasculation of male characters in modern TV (which I agree happens irregardless if it happens on NBG - look at The king of Queens, Friends, Family Guy, The Simpsons, American Dad, The War at home, Malcom in the Middle, etc etc etc).

But what do you guys consider masculine to begin with?
I'm wondering because I think you know Clint Eastwood, John Wayne, Lance Henriksen, Andy Griffth even (oh c'mon he wasn't tough, but he weas a strong figure) The Rifleman, Sheriff Matt Dillon

And on more recent TV, Elliot Stabler on Law and Order, Also Detective Munch, Jack McCoy, Fred Thompson, and even William Adama.

So given those idea of masculinity . . ok maybe NBG does not emasculate the male characters as much as Dirk claims. It emasculates some, but as it's an ensamble cast (to be fair to Dirk though, he judged based on the miniseries shoot script IIRC, or something, and I think if the mini series stood alone, he would be more correct. He wasn't ignoring things to make his point because those things were not there yet).

So I'm wondering if perhaps there's not a difference of ideas over what masculinity is? I doubt my idea of masculinity is Dirk's and that might be part of the issue.

I'd almost argue that Dirk's criticism about the darknes sof the show and more so the criticism of the Darkness of today's TV is the more valid point in regards to BSG ( in regards to TV in general, I think most of his points are correct in a general way).

I think maybe what was not adaptable to today's TV today was not the original Starbuck's maleness, but the original Starbuck's positiveness. And if you look at Kara, yeah they didn't even bother to try to make her the cheerful upbeat person that Starbuck was.

And I can certianly see that worth a criticism from Dirk. It's scary to me that the media doesn't seem to think, in a serious Drama, that happy people are realistic. That to be happy means you are an outdated cliche. That is . . . disturbing.

I also gotta add though.
Dirk id down as saying that using a cookbook to cook shows lack of brillance and courage.

I want to know what fans actually thought his opinions on adapting BSG would be overly enthusiastic? Considering, from what I've read, he wrote the essay because people kept wanting to know what he thought about it all, so I think this falls under, 'be careful what you ask for, you just might get it'.

I think it should have been kinda obvious Dirk would not be writing sunshine and love for the new series, just given his beleifs 0.o


*looks to mods . . . does this work? I tried hard to make sure this was as about Dirk's article as possible though I'm using memeory of what I read last night as i can't get to it right now at work to direct quote anything ^^ *
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Old 04-01-2008, 01:22 PM   #31
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It's unfortunate, but I am picking up that the admins feel like they have already dealt with our family of responses to Dirk's article (which speaks well for Dirk's article btw) and don't want to be bothered with it again. In looking back over this thread, it seems vigorous without being hostile. The comments are both intelligent and heartfelt which has made me feel that this topic is important. In all I sense an abiding respect for Dirk.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would not see the quality product that exists in the new BSG (despite the ever annoying StarDoe), but after having read these comments I have a better understanding of the mysterious black box that most of you are to me. I genuinely thank you for taking the time to craft your eloquent responses.

If the admins feel that this thread is a problem that very much dampens the enthusiasm for it. Most forums and blog sites welcome vigorous and thoughtful exchanges since this helps to drive quality traffic. More importantly, the message of that site (Dirk, macrobiotics, etc) gain a wider audience.

No one here has had anything but the highest regard for Dirk. Thank you everyone.
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Old 04-01-2008, 01:23 PM   #32
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Yikes! I don't come on for a few days and I miss all this! I have not seen any of the NBG so can't really comment of its portrayal of men and women. But my 1st impressions have come from the naming a female character Starbuck. Personally, if I was given the name or nickname 'buck' (I don't know if this is a surname in the show), I'd be insulted because I'm a girl and would be wondering why would anyone call me 'buck'? Do I act like a bloke?
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Old 04-01-2008, 01:27 PM   #33
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Hi Sawyer!
I feel the comments by everyone are very well thought out and there is great debating. I hope you stay
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Old 04-01-2008, 01:43 PM   #34
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For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would not see the quality product that exists in the new BSG
I think (and this is just my opinion) that this is the problem - the discourse seemed to be moving determinedly in the direction of convincing people that NBSG is a fantastic show, and not relating in any *significant* way to Dirk's article. Frankly, I don't care if it is or isn't fantastic, nor do I care what it's so-called social relevance is. As Tracy noted - it doesn't have Dirk in it so why should we discuss it here? There are, I'm sure, many other places on the 'net to do so. If you want to discuss the article and *reference* either show, I'm more than willing to continue reading and possibly even commenting.
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Old 04-01-2008, 03:17 PM   #35
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I think (and this is just my opinion) that this is the problem - the discourse seemed to be moving determinedly in the direction of convincing people that NBSG is a fantastic show, and not relating in any *significant* way to Dirk's article. Frankly, I don't care if it is or isn't fantastic, nor do I care what it's so-called social relevance is. As Tracy noted - it doesn't have Dirk in it so why should we discuss it here? There are, I'm sure, many other places on the 'net to do so. If you want to discuss the article and *reference* either show, I'm more than willing to continue reading and possibly even commenting.
I agree with ostarella, Tracy, dawg, Warrior, Ani (I hope I haven't left anyone else out.) I too am agreeable to discussing Dirk's article and references to the article and also perhaps commenting.
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Old 04-01-2008, 03:19 PM   #36
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I think (and this is just my opinion) that this is the problem - the discourse seemed to be moving determinedly in the direction of convincing people that NBSG is a fantastic .
Well keep in mind part of the original question relates to "how/why do we agree with Dirk?"

Which implies a lack of understanding of why anyone would not care for NBG.

Also he followed that with:
Quote:
but after having read these comments I have a better understanding of the mysterious black box that most of you are to me. I genuinely thank you for taking the time to craft your eloquent responses.
I'm fine with not understanding my opinion, as long as it's respected

I can somewhat relate too. I've said before it's easy for me to agree with Dirk's criticism and his aiming them at NBG 'cause I'm at best tolerantly entertained by some episodes. Clearly I see issues with the show already or I'd be a fan (saw NBG first).

If you are a fan of the show, presumably, you aren't gonna share Dirk's issues, or if you do, not understand why they are negative.

And I think it's hard to discuss LIC without bringing up the differences in shows.The trick that's working here (and I appreciate it Saywer) is there's not a vlaue judgment.

Too often I'm up against "well you don't like it because you are an idiot and need to read real sci-fi"
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Old 04-01-2008, 03:27 PM   #37
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And I think it's hard to discuss LIC without bringing up the differences in shows.
Very good point Ani.
I think we can both discuss LIC and bring some small reference to the shows because Dirk talked about the differences in his article and his views.
I think we can do that here without going really off topic.
As long as it's Dirk related.
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Old 04-01-2008, 03:56 PM   #38
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I agree one can hardly discuss the article without discussing the shows - but it seems to me that if someone has to search to find a small reference to the article in the myriad of comments, something's off-kilter. A discussion of the article (yay or nay) to my mind means "Dirk said this, and here is an example from (old/new) to (agree/disagree) with that point, and why I think so.", and then someone else saying, "Well, but there's this in rebuttal...". Instead (and no disrespect intended to anyone) it sounded like a group of social anthropologists discussing two obscure civilizations, trying to prove that one was more viable than the other in terms of historical significance. Which is fine if a) you're another social anthropologist and b) this was a social anthropology website.

I just would've liked to see a discussion of his article at that altitude.
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Old 04-01-2008, 05:09 PM   #39
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I just would've liked to see a discussion of his article at that altitude.
Ah ok, I was kinda looking for a discussion of concepts Dirk brings up and I guess less of a dissection of what he literally said.

But because for me, discussions like the later have always quickly fallen apart into an anal retentive discussion about what he literally said and not what he meant.
Which then gets me cournered into defenidng HOW he said it rather than WHAT he said. Which in fact are what a lot of LIC conversations seem to be.

Dirk said "women hand out babies" OMG! Sexist. Scream! Flail! Miss rest of the entire point of essay! Insist woman don't hand out babies! Make Ani wonder what reality you live in!



But I mean also even if I go pull direct quotes it sill is easy to get the BSG's in it given what he says
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Old 04-01-2008, 05:43 PM   #40
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Well, I didn't mean a phrase by phrase dissection, either. Concepts will work. My main point being that this particular discussion was way too heavy on the show comparison, and feather-light on the relevance to the article (phrases or concepts). It could have been a high level discussion with the starting points of various concepts from the article and moving through/past the shows to media and society in general, in which many could have participated. Instead it was massive doses of show-specific detritus that was meaningless to anyone who hadn't watched them, and again, with a purpose that seemed to me something other than a discussion of the article.
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Old 04-01-2008, 08:01 PM   #41
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Well, I didn't mean a phrase by phrase dissection, either. Concepts will work. My main point being that this particular discussion was way too heavy on the show comparison, and feather-light on the relevance to the article (phrases or concepts). It could have been a high level discussion with the starting points of various concepts from the article and moving through/past the shows to media and society in general, in which many could have participated. Instead it was massive doses of show-specific detritus that was meaningless to anyone who hadn't watched them, and again, with a purpose that seemed to me something other than a discussion of the article.
Ostarella,

THANK YOU. You hit the nail on the head.
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Old 04-02-2008, 05:31 AM   #42
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For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would not see the quality product that exists in the new BSG (despite the ever annoying StarDoe), but after having read these comments I have a better understanding of the mysterious black box that most of you are to me. I genuinely thank you for taking the time to craft your eloquent responses.
I don't find her annoying. Although I watch the new show, I can't deny it's flat out dull 80% of the time. A real chore to sit through episodes some of the time. Things move at a snails pace and there are only about 2 or 3 good episodes per season.

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Old 04-02-2008, 06:31 AM   #43
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I like Katee, too. Maybe not so much in GINO but in other stuff she's done. She's quite good.
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Old 04-02-2008, 10:30 AM   #44
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Wink Dirk Benedict IS Starbuck

Quote:
Originally Posted by ostarella View Post
Well, I didn't mean a phrase by phrase dissection, either. Concepts will work. My main point being that this particular discussion was way too heavy on the show comparison, and feather-light on the relevance to the article (phrases or concepts). It could have been a high level discussion with the starting points of various concepts from the article and moving through/past the shows to media and society in general, in which many could have participated. Instead it was massive doses of show-specific detritus that was meaningless to anyone who hadn't watched them, and again, with a purpose that seemed to me something other than a discussion of the article.
I agree with Tracy. You hit the nail on the head ostarella.
I'm here because I'm a Dirk Benedict fan. This is Dirk Benedict Central.
Look at my avatar. Dirk Benedict IS Starbuck. Starbuck IS Dirk Benedict. I'm a Starbuckaholic of the "real and one and only and true" Starbuck... Dirk Benedict.
I became a big fan of Dirk's when my Father took me to see "Saga of a Starworld" in the movie theatre way back in the 70's. I had seen Dirk in Charlie's Angels and Chopper One. I loved his portrayal of Starbuck The dashing rogue with a heart of gold. He made that role his. I wanted to learn more about the person who is Dirk Benedict. I agree with him 100% in LIC. He is down-to-earth, honest and speaks his mind and has a great sense of humour and is a wonderful Father and family man. *I don't think I left anything out.* As a special treat I watched the movie version again last night of "Saga of a Starworld." It delighted me as much as it did back then. And this was more than 30 years ago!
May the Lords of Kobol bless Lt. Starbuck...DIRK BENEDICT!
*Enough said.*
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Old 04-02-2008, 04:37 PM   #45
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I 100% agree.
I'm here to talk about Dirk.
Yes i totally agree.And ostarella i love the pic of dirk.He looks so suave
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Old 04-02-2008, 04:54 PM   #46
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i love the pic of dirk.He looks so suave
Doesn't he though?
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Old 04-02-2008, 05:19 PM   #47
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Doesn't he though?
Oh my god.He getssexier as he gets older.Although he were very sexy in BG
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Old 04-02-2008, 05:28 PM   #48
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Oh my god.He getssexier as he gets older.Although he were very sexy in BG
I 100% agree.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:45 PM   #49
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Frankly for me the new BSG isn't BSG.
It lacks the charm and family values of the "original and the real" Battlestar Galactica.
That's my honest opinion.
The new show is too dark and too violent.
I also agree with Dirk's assessment of the show.
Starbuck is Dirk Benedict and Dirk Benedict is Starbuck.
I've been a fan of Battlestar Galactica (the 1978 series) for over 30 years.
There is a very strong fan base.

Welcome to DBC!
I agree with you Bibbinut.
I too hold the same opinions about TNS. It shouldn't have been even called Battlestar Galactica, but something else that might have served as some sort of a spin off from Galactica.
The new BG is limited with it's range of audience suitability, and therefore, will never truly have the same fan following in numbers as the TOS did.
The original actors immortalized the very characters(and genders) they played, and will always be remembered as the parts they played and I'm afraid it's just not the same without them.
Nor without half of the characters that have been left out of TNS.

As Laurette said,....Battlestar Galactica will never be the same again as it was.
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Old 04-08-2008, 08:41 PM   #50
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My two cents on the matter, that I've condensed into a mantra, so I won't have to type it out over and over again, at the request of several posters:


This is simply not about a show us original BSG fans don\'t like. Long before there were GINO or fans of GINO (Galactica In Name Only), there were a core group of original BSG fans, who fought for and petitioned for a new BSG show. The majority of us wanted and petitioned for a FAITHFUL CONTINUATION of BSG. If you know anything about the history of BSG, you would know that Singer and DeSanto of XMEN fame were already working on a FAITHFUL CONTINUATION of BSG, with THE BLESSING OF IT\'S CREATOR, GLEN LARSON AND THE FANS. DeSanto attempted to continue Singer\'s vision, but SciFi Channel tore up all the preproduction sets, without warning, overnight. Really professional.

After the 9/11 tragedy set Singer and DeSanto\'s BSG project behind, they had no choice but to abandon the project, as they had already previously contracted to start the XMEN movie by a certain date.

Many, like myself, had gotten over the fact, the new show would not be a continuation, and still were very excited about a new BSG BEGINS. Many, like myself, tuned in for the first four to five episodes, with hopes of liking what we saw. Instead, we were soured by severe changes to the spirit of BSG and the characters that fill out this space epic. We were looking forward to an updating of the F/x, a SLIGHTLY darker, more mature interpretation of BSG. On the other hand, we didn\'t want a show that was so devoid of hope in the face of adversity and so filled with shock value antics, such as baby-neck snapping, rape and public masturbation (Baltar), we would hardly recognize the show as BSG. All of the latter is very out of place in a story, which bares the Galactica name.

Just think if someone remade STAR WARS and made Han Solo a girl, Princess Liea a guy and interjected public masturbation and rape? Fans would have been outraged. I like my ALIENS dramatic, dark and gritty, and my STAR WARS fun, slightly dark and political and action-packed. It was how both stories were written and meant to be. George Lucas penned STAR WARS, so the prequels were his to do with as he pleased. They weren't perfect, but for the most part, I like the prequels, as they stayed true to the spirit of episodes 4-6. I wouldn\'t want my ALIENS fun, lighter in tone and action-packed anymore than I would want my STAR WARS more dramatic, darker, grittier and more violent. STAR WARS, along with BSG, was the sparkle in our eye, which sent a surge of adventure and dreams of hope and heroism through our heads, as children. Moore disrespected that memory, all in a selfish agenda to pad his own ego. WHY? As I stated before, I love dark, violent and gritty, just as much as I love light-hearted fun, adventure and action. It depends on the mood; I’m in at the moment. To be honest, if Moore had penned his own story, characters and title, laced with all the dark & grittiness of an ALIEN movie and then some, I would have loved to seen what became of it with eager anticipation. Still, I’m not sure; I’m not too keen on what I’ve witnessed of Moore’s directing and writing skills.

Moore has taken a cherished story and characters and molested them into something they were not written as and never meant to be. If he wanted to do something so different, why didn\'t he wait until he had a chance to write his own source material 100% from scratch, instead of crushing a fan base\'s and author\'s hopes and wishes. THAT is the definition of true SELFISHNESS. ...and that is why so many of us are pissed off. The core element of original BSG fans, which are the same ones, who fought for a BSG revival, are actively making their opinions known via e-mails, message board, etc, as we feel, as that is our only voice. Most of the casual original BSG fan base of 29-65 million strong (at least back in 78-79), make their disapproval known, simply by not tuning in to watch GINO. SciFi Channel is the Goliath and we are David. We are desperate and frustrated. The nastiness and vindictiveness of so many pro-GINO posters (not all) and staffers at Sci Fi Channel SINCE DAY #1, has only added fuel to the fire.


I hope this sheds some light on the state of things today, in the BSG community.

Sincerely

sPider
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